My first platoon leader was OCS, my other two were USMA. And taken that way. I let crap roll off of my back, but when I attended Fort Knox this last summer there were way too many NCOs who had a big chip on their shoulder. Fernando Lujan is an Army special forces officer and former assistant professor of politics at West Point. This information was not covered or taught. The authors creative example about an NCO looking at a lugnut and an officer looking at the whole vehicle is nuts (bad humor). Still though, the cadet might be assigned to the unit based on the Modified Table of Organization and Equipment (MTO) to a non cadet billet. You have to chose some other branch. Biography LTC Joshua Lehman is a 2005 graduate of West Point and a career Special Forces officer. Interesting because WO1s are appointed by SecDef on behalf of the CinC. Thus, I suspect a warrant officer's wife is addressed a "wifady" (wife/lady.) Payback is one reason to avoid it. If you asked any of my roommates at West Point, you would quickly find out that this was my full intention. Holds the MOH, four Silver Stars, ten combat ribbons, CIB, is airborne qualified and ex special forces. Scotts writing focuses largely on veterans issues, but he is also a big proponent of Constitutional rights and has a deep interest in politics. In addition to working with allied Special Forces units, he paints . The CFA is a test of strength, agility, speed and endurance. *This post originally appeard The Havok Journal*, U.S. Army photo by: Mike Strasser/ USMA Public Affairs, Scott Faithis a veteran of a half-dozen combat deployments and has served in several different Special Operations units over the course of his Army career. What comes after is when the real learning begins. Cadets and NCOs do not salute one another. I always say Semper Fi or Airborne when I return salute. You must log in or register to reply here. Scott Faithis a veteran of a half-dozen combat deployments and has served in several different Special Operations units over the course of his Army career. He has deployed to Eastern Europe, Southwest Asia, and Central America and was formerly an assistant professor at the American University of Afghanistan. Rather, the Modern War Institute provides a forum for professionals to share opinions and cultivate ideas. In the 80s I was an instructor at the ANCOC Leadership School. It sits along the historic Hudson River in New York state. Cadets are never saluted. Even after more than twenty years in uniform, it still surprises me what I dont know about my own profession, and what I still have to learn from my NCOs. Cadets should know that they must earn respect. Arborry Hill Road Company, LLC Copyright 2006-2023, Service Academy Forums is a registered trademark of Arborry Hill Road Company, LLC. Only W1's, lacking a commission, are excepted from Art. United States Military Academy, byname West Point Academy, institution of higher education for the training of commissioned officers for the United States Army. For example, is it a school then a tour, then a school, or can you do multiple school at a time? . Is the cadet attached or assigned a leadership position? So I suppose we dont salute appointed Officers either? Simple professionalism is another, Respect the service, respect the service member. Reflections From A Special Forces Officer: West Point, Cold War Europe I did 24 years in the ARMY and have been led by West Pointers! I really liked the story and learned something as well having been a former SMP Cadet before I commissioned. They are TDY for a few weeks therefore their authority only extends to West Point. Medical students are not in this hierarchy at all except they answer to doctors and do only what a doctor tells them to, under that doctors supervision. Just try it. The OP's original post wasn't worded correctly. Somebody at USMA needs to ensure cadets are informed about their precedence in the order of ranks and teach them that while they are at AOT/CLTC, etc. So let me get this straight a probably well connect cadet who memorize info given to them as well as staying nice and tidy, as yet to graduate or earn a degree yet some how thinks that they are officers. Served in the regulars from 1983 to 1985, and from 1987 to 1989. 18A Special Forces officer is NOT a selection for branches on graduating from West Point. Get off your high horse. A Leaders Guide to Conducting Research Staff Rides. Allow them to lead you too! He was commissioned as an infantry officer from the US Military Academy at West Point in 2008 and began Special Forces training in 2012. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Delta has the toughest training in the army and does the highest classified missions. 2 pm - 5 pm. Secondly, just because of this outdated regulation (considering no cadets are assigned to any deployed units) requires no customs or courtesy obligation from enlisted soldiers or officers. Nike Men's Army West Point Black Knights White Pinstripe Full Button Replica Baseball Jersey $110.00 Limited Stock to Ship ADD TO CART Nike Men's Army West Point Black Knights 2022 Rivalry Collection #1 Green Untouchable Game Football Jersey $78.97 $105.00 * Limited Stock to Ship ADD TO CART The use of software that blocks ads hinders our ability to serve you the content you came here to enjoy. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and as such know who and where you are able to receive the BEST mentorship and hands on experience. This essay is an unofficial expression of opinion; the views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of West Point, the Department of the Army, U.S. I agree with you Sir. Here's my advise that will serve you well; always remember this; ASSUMPTIONS ARE THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK UPS! By reg,they can't command or lead troops in the field. Gain the Advantage With a Full-Tuition Scholarship. Army-Navy Wrestling Tickets (February 19, 2023), Official E-Mail of Army West Point Athletics. It dates back to the Revolutionary War. Prepare for leadership roles by applying for jobs in Army branches. Your commitment will be at least five years of Active Duty and three years in Army Reserve Component, for a total of eight years. Special Forces after West Point | United States of America Service Some points I wanted to make sure I hit are: -No, you don't have to call them sir/ma'am or salute them, but you absolutely should show them the respect you would like to receive. Good answer. Just curious: Is it possible to become an Aviation officer then drop a The Evidence: The NCO referred me to AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. LTC Joshua Lehman - United States Military Academy And get to know your PBO very well! You are using an out of date browser. No, they won't deploy in that position, but they can and do attend annual training and NTC rotations and can act as Platoon Leader. West Point grads are elite and you know it, Ask any enlisted person and they will tell you that westpointers are arrogant and on need of a lot of training. His research interests include irregular warfare, surrogate warfare, and insurgency. As that was a long time ago, my memories of the experience were that it was the best and the worst of both worlds. Joseph John Quichocho, 1SG E-8 RETIRED US ARMY. Tom has spent time working at various levels of local government as an intern for both the 27th legislative district in Arizona as well as the office of Arizona governor Doug Ducey during the COVID-19 pandemic. Every single SNCO I've come in contact with in ROTC has developed me as an Officer. Read the regs CAREFULLY people, when you want to use them to make a point. 4 I once had a young cadet who was walking with his girlfriend , loudly address me saying , you do not salute Officers ? Cadets are Officers period and should be rendered the appropriate courtesy. Abigail P. Gage is a national security professional with experience in the Department of Defense, at the Executive Office of the President, and on Capitol Hill. The ones that get emotional about my post will reply as expected and miss the lesson altogether because they've been hard wired to respond that way. No one does this better than The Corps. How does one get involved with special forces after West Point? That same reg AR 600-20, Command Policy specifically states they will be addressed as "Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet" not Sir or Mam. And yet, the UCMJ does hold all commissioned officers, including CW2-CW5, accountable for their behavior, as they are subject to Article 133, Conduct Unbecoming and Officer and Gentlemen. It was advanced pay so to speak. Henry is a squad leader for the USMA Sandhurst Black and Gold Team, the CIC of a student discussion group associated with the Modern War Institute, and a member of the Domestic Affairs Forum. Only the pay grade the cadet holds. Look at any Command where a COL thru Gen and you will see a whole lot of Soldiers both Officers and NCOs running and doing everything to make that command function! The invested money for the cadet wasted. It is one of the oldest service academies in the world. It is the oldest of the five American service academies and . Every. I was recently in a conversation with a senior noncommissioned officer in an elite US Army unit, when the subject of CTLT came up. And I declined two Bronze Stars because some senior Officer decided to dispense them for every Officer and Senior NCO in theater! We need not be concerned about the proviso of either 2-15 or 2-16 as each applies to a Soldier under certain sanctions of discipline. I was floored. That sounds like a fun and challenging job. . The reason you would place cadets above enlisted in the rank chart is because they will be officers. Will that is incorrect. Whoever came up with this interpretation needs to review deeper. We're also the one demographic that gives the socialist/communists nightmares because they know they can't take us head on in any manner so they go through the younger people to reach their aims. The wear of civilian clothes and non-standard uniforms by soldiers was not a new development in 2002. You and everybody else. This would be wiser than placing a WP Year 1 cadet in charge of it. So there is definitely some need to define regularly assigned. Regarding saluting courtesy in the cadet corps. Useful for special forces, regular soldiers and civilians alike. In respect of ROTC, the R stipulates that only a contracted cadet in ROTC fits the definition I presented. Dont demand respect earn it. Don't assume a damn thing, if a young NCO or Soldier tells you he "thinks" the vehicle is ready or has a full tank of fuel, hand him a long stick, send him back to the Motor Pool, have him put the stick into the fuel tank and bring back said stick with fuel on it, that way both of you will now KNOW that the vehicle is fueled. Such questions are usually better asked through private means. The cadet does not outrank a senior NCO E7 or above. Youll begin to get leadership experience by serving as a squad leader for Basic Training, taking courses in international relations, platoon operations, and more. Boy if it wasn't entertainment at its best. Its like my father (retired CW3) taught me; " I don't have to respect you but I HAVE TO RESPECT your rank.". I know it's possible in theory but I'm more or less wondering if anyone knows whether or not it is plausible and/or has already been done. While CTLT is a useful and important mentorship and developmental activity, many units see CTLT as a drag, and dealing with cadets as a hassle. Imagine that, good ol Top didnt read the entire regulation, only the part that suited his narrativeshocked. Technically. The rank of a cadet is for protocol issues alone such as where to stand in a receiving line or where to sit at a formal dinner. Per the order, they are not entitled to a salute. And yes the officer corps views your spouse as just a "wife.". Define "Duty", you know as opposed to "Education/Training". It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander if the announcement gives the time element involved. All true. indicating superior social status. No matter what route an O receives his commission by, he will regard his SNCOs and NCOs who trained him with the utmost honor and respect. Somewhat surprised by this, and thinking back to my own experiences in CTLT, I asked why he felt that way. I think that it would be a huge step in the right direction for the ROTC BNs to send their CDTs to their gaining units with an LOI/MOU pinned to their chest (Im sure ROTC has probably published guidance along those lines, but Ive never seen it) so that those commanders will have some idea what to do with those CDTs when they get there. Cadets saluted officers of all United States uniformed services. West Point graduates are highly sought after. which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. Example: In the U.S. Military a Warrant Officer (W-2W-5) are commissioned but are not gentlemen officers. Irregular Warfare Initiative Team - Modern War Institute the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps The Candidate Fitness Assessment (CFA) is one of the requirements for admission to the United States Military Academy at West Point. If you are a senior in high school, in college, or already in the Army, apply as soon as possible. Specifically, it allows them to try their hands at officership, and to get a feel for the kinds of officer/NCO relationships that are essential to the success of our Army. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. They won't forget what you've shown them and they will resent you. Former Special Forces officer dies in Mount Rainier climbing accident I say this as a retired officer. So you are incorrect when you say that Cadets outrank me. They'd go nuts. I wish all the young people about to start their time at the USMA or ROTC would come back after they branch just to see how many select what they started out wanting. A lot of people have been killed in combat because of the arrogance of westpointers. Salute were means of communication. Special Forces Officer & West Point Prof. | How to Identify the Best ep Visiting West Point Alma Mater/Songs Army-Air Force Series Army-Navy Star Series presented by USAA The Patriot League *Back to the story: At first, I let things go and decided someone had to be tough on these kids, but after a while, I couldn't let it roll on. I think the part of the reg people have over looked is "the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command". Tired of all the "barracks lawyers" looking for some sort of designated, assigned, or "official" trappings of respect; absent the need to EARN that respect. Somehow, the memo of shifting demographics of new Soldiers within the Infantry never reached West Point so there's a huge disconnect in reality. The views expressed are those of the authors, and do not reflect the official position of the United States Military Academy, Department of the Army, or Department of Defense. I would argue that the NCO/CO rivalries have started as a result of more modern times as compared to past wars and generations and honestly it should stop. Is anyone able to give me a solid answer to this question? Its not so much AR, but UCMJ. Tom Katsenes is currently a junior at the United States Military Academy at West Point, majoring in American politics. When I contracted under the SMP I was administratively promoted to the rank and pay grade of E-5 ( I had served two years previously in the Army Reserve as a junior enlisted 11B). Including West Point complete cadet uniform, SFWS Dress tunics, trousers, dress shirts, belt buckles, service cap and more. Army Black Knights Men's Apparel No commission? United States Military Academy at West Point 1983 1987 Experience AngioDynamics October 2013 - Present American Medical Systems October 2010 - September 2013 American Medical Systems January 2007 - September 2010 American Medical Systems December 2003 - December 2006 American Medical Systems June 2002 - December 2003 He is a member of the Army mens golf team, the Domestic Affairs Forum, and the Honor Committee. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It is used to predict a candidate's aptitude for the physical program at the service academies. Practice ought to comport with policy. Hope this was brief enough for you or TL:DR? As for me, while a SNCO would in general be qualified to succeed a LT as platoon leader, any such succession would need to be limited to a short term basis. And if for one second you think any Infantrymen will ever do something that violates our Constitutional form of government, you've made the worst assumption of your young life. As a mom of a cadet thank you! When I was an O-3, I regularly saluted SGM's first depending on who saw whom first and the nature of the encounter. During cadet training we were paid at the rate of an E5. Because according to the Army, they outrank me, sir.. I hope this sheds some light on things. You see there is a important reason that the strap be properly secured to the six foot ground rod driven into the ground. (Still, there is no need to salute them. 2LT Eisenhower, he was a 6' 3" tall man who was assigned to our platoon in 1992. They don't even have a MOS/Branch assignment or anything else at this point. Very interesting. Not be married. Can West Point graduates serve in the US army's Delta Force? Then we'd mow the guy down with an M4. I spent 3 years as a MSG and never saluted a cadet. However, images of U.S. Green Berets on horseback wearing pakols and various combinations of uniforms and shalwar kameez in late 2001 brought the issue back into public view. Founded in 1802, the United States Military Academy at West Point is the oldest military academy in the nation. Give credit where its due and stop making it about you. It goes both ways and without Officers the Army would surely still fall apart. I work with my leadership and learn from them and they help to shape me to become a good officer. Size: Small to Medium | Condition: Very good. Pro-Tip: Don't make a blog post, offer a comment section, then expect not to be schooled by your elders, especially when taking a condescending tone. but after I had earned my keep so to speak he spent a lot of time teaching and mentoring this Dot head and when I was commissioned he took time off from his civilian job to come to the commissioning ceremony to congratulate me. When you focus on things that scare you to death, always remember that those are your fears and we're not concerned with achieving the next rank or a nice review. March 6th. The following are requirements for candidates applying to USMA at West Point: Since you need to request a nomination from a U.S. Yes I have seen a misguided ROTC cadet DEMAND a salute from an E-9 once. It would be earned when I became the kind of Officer that he would be honored to serve as right hand to. And keep your mouth open and eyes covered with your hands when it or any other explosion goes off near you. ok Cadet, go right ahead. If you've ever been in a doctor's appointment and a medical student was assigned to your doctor, that's about how cadets in CTLT and SMP function. Except for USNA kids. Army command policy is clear the definition of terms. No, I always salute them and treat them as officers, and I make sure everyone else does too, he replied in total sincerity. It was originally founded as a school for the U.S. He has operational experience and deployments to the Middle East and several countries in Latin America. They always forgot to take the safety bail/pin out of the RPG fuze and the round would just bounce off our Bradleys, lol. I have heard the saying "Stop being an arrogant officer?" Date within. I was an enlisted man and my rank at the time of my discharge in the late Summer of 1989 was Sergeant E5. I see that USMA had a proud communist recently graduate, he might as well spit in my face and all other better warriors than myself before me. March 6th. Hands on training.. they eill not actually be cooking but learning from hose that do it daily.. Skip To Main Content Pause All . However, I don't see the wisdom of placing a SNCO in command of a company ahead of a cadet. WO1s even as appointed Officers are subject to all provisions of the UCMJ even art 33. ). No Salute should be required or rendered. I believe my words only carried weight because I've already been in the Army for 10 years and the Senior cadre knew this (I didn't get in any trouble). -If you are a cadet and you don't see the value of picking the brain of an NCO (CPL to SGM), then you will most likely be doing your time and moving on. Oh please. Does anyone know why officers can't be snipers? She began her career as an active duty US Army officer and continues her service as an over-time major in the National Guard. Gold - Gold as in the Class Rings received cadet's senior year, or like the plentiful Brass found on the cadet uniform and the rank/insignia patches worn by upperclassmen designating their cadet rank and position. So this cadet would already be embedded with the staff or command team or shadowing the Platoon Leader, and would most likely have some, albeit limited prior service. Physical Testing | United States Military Academy West Point Yes, Sergeant, Actually That West Point Cadet Does Outrank You The cadet only holds E-6 equivalency. Stay on top of the information you need to navigate the admissions process amid the COVID-19 pandemic. His service with the 5 th Special Forces Group (Airborne) has included leading in Iraq, Syria, and other locations in the Middle East. CDT military IDs show geneva convention status 3. 2022-23 Men's Rugby Schedule - Army West Point The fully-funded four-year education stands out amongst top non-military universities, and is worth more than $225,000. Technically. Something I wish I knew 50 years ago. OK, fine. Then, when you are a senior 1st Lt apply for the part of the Special Operations community you want (Rangers, Special Forces, Delta etc). I found myself going toe to toe with these junior NCOs and enlisted, but not to destroy their souls (as the NCO in me wanted to do so badly) but to talk to them and help them understand that if you treat these cadets like crap, it will be returned 10 fold in a year when they commission, hate NCOs, and are their raters. Shiver me timbers he pooped on the deck. I was an Air Force Aviation Cadet during the late 1950's. In my experience we rarely see a decent new officer come out of West Point and it's really sad. Nurses don't outrank med students or vice-versa. Period. If cadets, during this valuable leadership experience, are not given the chance to act as lieutenants and acting platoon leaders, then the whole CLTC program should be scrapped. You can't lead if you don't know how to follow. The supervising doctor might ask the medical student to do certain things a doctor would normally do (recommend a prescription, put in sutures, read test or x-ray results), but only with direct physician supervision. If I were to graduate from West Point, how would I go about - Quora Knights lifted their helmet to recognize they friends from enemy. So glad I longer serve. This does not mean they are to enact on that rank as authority has been given to the person in command of them. Infantry Veterans/Retirees cluster together on various online formats and we're very concerned what direction things are going and it has nothing to do with President Trump, I've seen what a prelude to war is twice in my lifetime and I'm seeing another one but in a slower manner.